Now it gets tricky. i'm not a self publisher per se, well the magazine probably counts but i think it differs from a comic enough not to count.
In my mind what seperates Small Press and Indy Press is the level of intent. Small press is more of a personal product, a small print comic run because its for friends and family. Its not about 'making' money or gaining profile, its just a personal effort and expression of art, not commercialism. So small press product hasn't got the glam or glitz to try and compete with other comics. Its not necessarily regular comic size, full coloured cover, large print run, large cover priced. Its not meant to compete with the American imports.
In a perfect world, we could differentiate the two by self published and company published, but in the current landscape that would only be Phosphorescent Comics and Ozone's stuff (which is sort of a company with backing as i understand it). But it ain't perfect, essentially its a self publishers' world. Even in the Americas, very few companies are work for hire situations, Image, Oni, Planet Lar are all backend dealers. More like glorified Print to Demand with agents and distributors.
Anyway, a different method is needed to differentiate the two, for the sake of ledgerifying good stuff. Since the first little publishing explosion in 2002 (knee pockets, killerooo, tales, crab, watch) it seems that the only example of offset printing is the watch and killeroo (i'm guessing the latter), everything else is photocopy/digital press. So that can't be used effectively, nor can format/size.
But why seperate, why not just have "best comic". well yeah, you can. But if an awards is primarily about recognising good work then by having multiple subcategories under 'comics' spreads the love around. Also, small press books and indy press books have different themes and a different purpose. In films terms, small press would be short films, more about experimenting or showing a moment or emotion; more style and pathos than narrative and logos. Independent press is more of a feature film, something that shows a development of character and a progression of classical plot.
One is no more or no less important than the other. They have different audiences and different purposes.
Both should be celebrated.
So how do we decide what's small and indy?
I think it will need to be something criterium based
Small Press books
- under 24 pages
- no story is longer than 16 pages
- less than 3 colour cover (not including greyscale or monotone covers)
- Smaller than US Regular size
- less than 3 creators
If it meets 2 or more criteria then its small press. Everything else is Independent.
Now its a matter of grabbing some titles and seeing if they break the criteria (are there any books that are definetly commercial press but would be classed as small press here).
Probably adding from yesterday's talk on anthologies, i'd say that a single creator anthology (like "You stink, and I don't" or "nakedfella") would be better in the small press/indy press section than in the anthologies category.
Now in terms of nominating, if the public nominate a book, I'd have the form ask "for the best five comics", then its up to the jury/administrator to but them in the right category. if Jury selects the books and the public vote for the winner, then the point is moot.
now break me
9 comments:
Dude, I really don't think it matters.
I also seriously think that having such criteria as you've listed is just going to make things unnecessarily complex. What about Ashcans by image and the like? they're less than 24 pages and are smaller than standard comic size.
I think that if it's A) done by a single creator or a bunch of them and B) self published, then it's an "independant" or "small press" or whatever the hell you want to call it, regardless of size.
Here's a brain teazer for you, what if my next graphic novel is roughly 100 pages long but photocopied onto A4 paper folded and stapled in the middle with more than three colours? (it can be done now days) and it's a collection of stories that are all exactly 16 pages in length? does that make it "independant" or "small press"?
it's nothing like film dude, film is a whole DIFFERENT can of worms all together. Yeah, sure, you got your short films, and then you got long form, but then what happens when you put three short films together on a single reel? how long can a "short film" go for before it isn't a short film? how long is a piece of string?
This is an australian comics award my friend (who is noice, and friendly!). So I don't think there's gonna be a whole lot of people who can make the "independant" category. Crab was a big book, yes, and it had colour on the cover and the card stock was superior, but baisically it was a small press project with a high budget.
But I like all of your other catagory suggestions, YAY! you are the man, don't dtop being you buddy, you are ace.
cheers
-LFW
I'm predominatly talking about local product, so Ashcan's by Image (do they even do ashcans anymore?) is not really something relevant to the Ledgers. International books are already covered by the 'Best International book' category.
I explained here why some sort of criteria is needed in regards to voting and then yesterday why there should be two categories. Its all arbitary labelling for the sake of giving awards to creators. Probably my main poiunt is if you are going to have two categories like Small Press and Independent Press at least have something to differentiate the two. Otherwise just have "best Comic" and not worry about defining what is what.
In your example. Your example is a good one. You broke the model. Ok, how about if we add that if it has a glued spine, then its Indendepent press. i'm not really up with printing but I don't think you can staple 100 pages, it would have to be bound and not saddle stapled. Which actually brings up a point that last year there were a number of books that could have been in a graphic novel category; retail therapy, worlds away, you stink i don't, he died with a felafel in his hand. But that's another topic.
I'm going to disagree your poiunt about films. On a superficial level short films and small press have a number of similarities. And I think i expressed these simialrities in the post. If you can actually say how short films and small press differ then do so, so i know where you are coming from.
If the three short films have nothing to do with each other, besides being on the same reel, they have no narrative or character connection then its just three films on a same reel. At home I have a video tape with Carnivale, Amazing Race and Desperate Housewives, but it doesn't affect how i watch them or what i get from them.
The Academy says that a short film is no more than 40 minutes long. And a piece of string is twice half its length (see you can define anything).
But was the intent of Crab Allan, something to share with friends and famiuly or was it a commercial exercise, something you tried to sell?
And don't stop being you Mr Weber.
Working backwards, leaving Small Press for a moment, I defined Independent (as opposed to International) as a comic that aims to be distributed commercially in Australia only (like, say... Knee Pockets). I'd include it as an independent title even if people could order it from Phase Two from say, Alaska. The main point being, the publishers haven't gone through Diamond or any major international distributors, and are concentrating on local sales and distribution. The category would also be defined by the creator/s being the publisher. 'Independent' from editors, publishers and corporate direction.
Now, I totally agree that this 'could' cause confusion with Small Press in certain cases. But Small Press, to me, is obviously mini comics. Obviously photocopied or crapped out of a wombat's arse. Lo-fi. Lean, mean.
If a jury is introduced for next year's awards, then I'd think they'd choose what goes where, as you've mentioned.
If the publisher/s of an Independent Press item -- say the upcoming Killeroo Book 3 -- launch a product to be distributed and marketed formally to the OS on launch, then it gets placed into International. Books with Australian talent published by overseas publishers are also placed in this category.
So, when LFW produced his first A5 photocopied version of Crab in the 5th grade and sold it to his mates at little lunch... that'd be Small Press.
When he decided to publish that huge, honking album and flog it to Australian readers, that would have been Independent Press.
Ih launched the big honking album through Diamond, it would be International.
When the Independent and International product is the same thing (LFW clearing the same stock/edition) then it depends on when the book was first released (in the voting year). If he launched Crab in Australia only, but went international after 5 years... then it would only be eligible for Independent Press cuz that's what it was in the given year of launch. No-one can see the future and see what LFW is going to do distribution-wise 5 years down the track. So the year Crab goes international doesn't mean he's eligible for International in that year.
Clear as mud. :-)
Gary Chaloner
Clear as mudAnd that's the problem.
We'll leave it to the Wash, then.
How do you define "concentrating on local sales and distribution", selling it through Kings and phase 2? Selling it through more than 3 shops? 4? According to your theory Crab Allan would be small press, its not available anywhere. It kind of sounds like "if we've heard of it then its independent press".
Leaving creators and publishers to define their books seems like a sensible idea but what's to stop a publisher with a whiz bang full colour comic saying its small press and then easily running away with the award.
I think my main point if you want the award to mean anything, then do it properly and have defined rules and criteria. Otherwise it is just a circle jerk.
And saying mini-comic would mean something like Tales from Under the bed or Batrisha would be Small Press, when its the antithesis of Small Press. Where something like Deerflame legacy is independent Press even though its impossible to get a hold of.
Size can't matter.
Mark Selan said...
"Clear as mudAnd that's the problem.
We'll leave it to the Wash, then."
Huh? Did I say that? I said that the jury would decide what goes where. (This of course would have to be based on a set of guidelines. Which I gave my opinion on.)
"How do you define "concentrating on local sales and distribution", selling it through Kings and phase 2? Selling it through more than 3 shops? 4? "
Yep to all.
"According to your theory Crab Allan would be small press, its not available anywhere. "
Huh? Luke sold it to whomever wanted it and to whatever store wanted to stock it. He had a web site and a presence on forums etc. Sure, it may have been patchy due to his inexperience in marketing at the time... but he was trying. Small Press? You gotta be kidding.
"It kind of sounds like "if we've heard of it then its independent press"."
Ah... no.
"Leaving creators and publishers to define their books seems like a sensible idea but what's to stop a publisher with a whiz bang full colour comic saying its small press and then easily running away with the award."
Well, the whiz bang full colour comic could still be crap as far as the jury is concerned. BUT it wouldn't end up in Small Press as the jury would have final say and place it in the right category.
"I think my main point if you want the award to mean anything, then do it properly and have defined rules and criteria. Otherwise it is just a circle jerk."
Agreed. We are heading in the right direction.
The number of categories will be streamlined.
A judging jury will be appointed.
Clear definitions will be drawn for each category. If there's any confusion on what goes in what category, the jury will make a decision.
Nominations forms and other marketing tools will be forwarded to retail stores, record stores international web sites and other relevant outlets to catch the widest pool of readers and parties wanting to nominate.
"And saying mini-comic would mean something like Tales from Under the bed or Batrisha would be Small Press..."
Where do you get THAT from? I think those two are SO Indie Press. In fact if the Batrisha albums are available overseas (they were published under a publisher's imprint, not self-published... if I'm not mistaken) then Batrisha would go into International.
The fact that 'Tales...' was A5 is so unimportant. Size doesn't matter. It obviously wasn't a mini. It had certain production values and target marketing as an all-ages comic. It is not a mini, nor could you confuse it with one. If you take that line of thinking (which I never had)... 'Mania', 'Kidzone' et al are all Small Press!
'Billy Demon Slayer' on the other hand ...
"... when its the antithesis of Small Press."
... is, IMO, Small Press. Photocopied covers on coloured bond stock etc etc
" Where something like Deerflame legacy is independent Press even though its impossible to get a hold of.
Size can't matter."
Never said it did. An A6 graphic novel published through Pan Australia is not small press, for example.
I think we're disagreeing to agree here Mark, to a certain extent.... but we'll get there.
GC
You see? YOU SEE?!?! DO YOU SEE?!?! this is what I was talking about. It's complex, and when you get right down to it, it's nothing more than two peoples different opinions about the same subject, neither is right nor is it wrong. This is why IT MUST BE SIMPLIFIED BEFORE THE APOCOLYPSE IS CAUSED! AAGH!
If you're still so adamant on having two catagories, when glanced at, baisically mean the same thing, then I have to agree mostly with gary. If it's a crappy photocopy piece, then that's what it is (small press, right gaz? I forgot what you wrote just now) but anything more substantial like coloured cover and good paper stock, then it's indie, regardless of distribution or lack-of.
My argument is that you're putting categories and requirements on an specific art form that's wild, chaotic, and usually like a snowflake per creator, tailor made by them to suit their needs (as I demonstrated via my "for argument's sake" example).
I just think if you try and divide and define something that doens't take too well to lables, then there are going to be GOOD and DIFFERENT books that are going to fall through the cracks.
If you just keep it under one catagory (sure, why the hell not "best comic"? beats the shit out of anything so far) then it's a problem you can circumvent.
oh I'll shut up.
-LFW
Leaving it to the wash comments are based on previous comments you've made at ozcomics and elsewhere where you stated that you'd leave categorisation to the wash.
I don't really care what the criteria for the category is - i'm supplying my views on what the criteria could be; putting it out there so others can then 'break' the model and make it better. My concerns are primarily that something needs to be concrete and defined (for all categories not just small/indy press) and a smaller secondary concern is i think there should a small press and indy press category. Having a 'best comic' category is always going to hurt smaller productions and it will be more about money (to go into printing) then actual art.
I think my problem, Gary, is that you seem to be flip flopping and its hard to see what your criteria is for either. Broad sentences like "concentrating on local sales and distribution" doesn't mean anything. If you said something like "comics sold in 3 retailers in more than one state are independent press" I'd applaud and say good.
On the flipflopping (probably not flip flopping but more the unfocused or inevident focus). Oh and i get the whole minicomics slant from your comment "But Small Press, to me, is obviously mini comics." It would be easy to say that Tales from under the bed in its A5 format is a mini comic because its small, smaller than regular US size. Simplistic yes, but what we are trying to do is actually define what is mini comic/small press and if its not defined by size what is it defined as?
I think the issue is that i don't see mini comics as being inferior to regular sized comics. There are regular sized comics with shoddy production, like "rock 'n roll ninja aquaris' but that's not refered as a mini comic.
For me Mini comic does not equal zine. For a lot of people it does. For me mini comic means small stapled comic.
I'd disagree about Luke's distribution of Crab Allan, true i wasn't around when it was first released but besides some Brisbane shops and Convention appearances was it available anywhere else? (Luke help us out!) Buying a comic directly from the creator is not distribution, its retailing.
So is it format or distribution that is the basis of category? or a mix of both? That's not what is clear with me and why i'm throwing my 2 cents in.
Ahhhh...! Gotcha. Okay... I see where you're coming from. I got a pretty hectic week ahead, but keep on thinking and writing Mark... and I'll sit down when I can to type up a more clear-cut and defined outline of things for people to discuss.
Gary
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